Exclusive interview with ETHTaipei Vitalik: Ethereum will face a critical moment in the next five years, and dark chocolate is the most commonly eaten

During the recent ETHTaipei 2024 conference, Vitalik accepted interviews and questions from many media, covering life and diet, Dencun upgrade and Ethereum-related routes (upgrade expectations, centralization problems, modular re-pledge, etc.), security and privacy (Anti-quantum capabilities, ZK privacy security), decentralized social networking, AI, industry advice and other topics,

Q: As a nomad, what do you often do to yourself recently? What fast food?

A: Dark chocolate will be one of the main components.

Q: As you travel and live around, which experimental community activity has inspired you the most?

A: Regarding the specific meaning of experimental community activities you mentioned, last year’s Zuzalu was probably the largest of them all. Zuzalu is a pop-up urban experiment launched by Vitalik in Montenegro from March to May 2023. In addition, there was an event in Vietnam, which was the first event I attended that was held entirely outdoors. It reminded me of the atmosphere of West Lake in Hangzhou. It was also the most comprehensive conference with the most precautionary measures I have ever experienced, which I found great.

Q: What job are you most interested in recently? Not necessarily Ethereum/crypto related.

A: Things related to Ethereum have been very low this year. Even if they are relevant, they are in the community. Various independent groups are forming their own projects, and I follow along and help where I can. I’m excited to visit some of these projects soon. Lately, I've been trying out some of the latest artificial intelligence tools, running models locally, and using them for various tasks. It is important to develop a deeper understanding and explore new possibilities in this area. Learning is vital and I believe there is value in exploring a variety of topics. So, those are the main highlights.

Q: What contribution does the Dencun upgrade have to the Ethereum ecosystem?

A: The purpose of the Dencun upgrade is to significantly improve scalability and reduce transaction fees, especially for L2 and Rollups. It does this by creating an independent portion of the database (called blobs) within each block. This data is not accessible to the EVM, which is important because it means clients validating Ethereum blocks do not need immediate access to this data. However, the Ethereum blockchain guarantees its availability. This feature is particularly beneficial for Rollups, as well as any L2 project that relies on secure data availability, ensuring that nodes can synchronize if the current node disappears, or if incorrect answers are challenged.

Over the past week, we have observed significant decreases in tier 2 fees, sometimes as much as 50%. However, it is important to note that as more users adopt blobs, fees may increase again. Still, this represents a significant scalability improvement, and we expect the number of blobs supported by the Ethereum chain to continue to increase in the coming years.

Q: Has Dencun’s performance exceeded expectations after the upgrade?

A: I think it depends on your understanding of "exceeding expectations". From a technical perspective, the upgrade went well. Network participation only dropped from 99% to 95%, which is better than any of our previous hard forks.

Interestingly, usage is currently very low. The goal is about 3 blobs per block, but the average usage is only one blob per block. This means blobs are very cheap right now. If you want to publish a blob, you basically just pay Ethereum transaction fees. High Ethereum transaction fees may be a reason, but if the price of blobs is close to zero, they can be used for various purposes, such as backing up encrypted copies of hard drives. There are endless uses for a guaranteed database. I'm sure usage will eventually increase, but right now it's advantageous for current Rollups to be very cheap. I look forward to seeing usage increase in the coming months.

Q: What do you think will be the most transformative impact on society in the next five years?

A: I think the next five years will be crucial for Ethereum because many applications that were once theoretical or small-scale are now ready for real-world applications. The impact of blockchain technology has begun to permeate the wider world, but often goes unnoticed. For example, Reddit’s upcoming IPO offers active community members the opportunity to participate alongside institutional investors, fueled by ideas from the crypto space.

In terms of practical use, stablecoins have had the greatest impact, facilitating savings, transactions, and transfers. Over the next five years, Ethereum’s user experience and fee structure will improve, with developments like L2 and Base blazing a trail. As Ethereum becomes more user-friendly, it is expected to lead the way in making stablecoins accessible and decentralized.

In addition to the financial sector, non-financial applications are also gaining growth, especially in social media alternatives such as Forecaster and Lens. Decentralization offers unique advantages, such as anyone being able to develop new clients or access and write the same content without starting from scratch. This active ecosystem is expected to expand further.

Ethereum-based identity solutions are also growing rapidly, including advances in personality proof protocols and social graph-based systems. These solutions aim to solve the challenge of authenticating human users in online platforms, mitigating the risk that centralized solutions may exclude certain groups. Ethereum has the potential to take a leadership role in developing decentralized alternatives to this problem.

Overall, these developments highlight the importance of Ethereum’s evolution and its potential to continue growing in various fields.

Q: What do you think of the current challenges with PoS, and how will SSF(single slot formality) and other upgrades solve these problems?

A: I think the main challenges currently facing proof of stake mainly involve various centralization risks. An important concern is the MEV (Miner Extractable Value) aspect, and the risks associated with Proof of Stake and the functionality of being a validator itself. On the MEV side, we are witnessing growing centralization and censorship risks, and Relayers are becoming yet another centralizing actor. Technologies such as execution tickets and inclusion lists aim to mitigate these risks, working to maintain decentralization and fairness in block creation while assigning specific centralized functionality to builders.

Another challenge lies in the proof of stake itself. According to recent polls, the main reason for not participating in Proof of Stake is that holding less than 32 ETH and running a node is considered too difficult. However, a technology roadmap has been developed to address these issues. For example, significant progress has been made with vertical trees aimed at reducing the storage requirements for running nodes from multiple terabytes to more manageable levels, potentially enabling nodes to run in RAM. Additionally, with technologies such as ZK-SNARKs, the computational requirements to run a node will be further reduced, making it easy for a wider user base to run nodes.

The problem of holding less than 32 ETH for stake verification is more complicated. Initially, 32 ETH was chosen to strike a balance between requiring large amounts of ETH for validation and avoiding too many validators, which could lead to processing difficulties. New approaches to proof-of-stake include relaxing the requirement for each validator to participate in every consensus round, allowing for benefits such as single-slot finality and the ability to validate with less than 32 ETH. Rainbow staking and BLS signatures are among the proposals being studied.

Q: We have seen many projects proposing "modular blockchain" solutions, and we have also seen the idea that Ethereum L1 can be responsible for shared ordering. What do you think about the broader question: which functions should be handled centrally by L1, and which functions should be left to individual L2s?

A: Modularity implies that in the future the functionality of individual chains will be reduced, with different components being represented by Different parts are managed, and shared ordering becomes increasingly important, as advocated by one of our fellows, Justin Drake.

Currently, Ethereum L1 is responsible for shared security and settlement, ensuring that each L2 can interact without relying on a centralized set of participants or validators. Ethereum provides data availability for rollups, but not voliums, and the ordering of transactions is determined on a rollup-by-rollup basis.

Opinions differ on sharing ordering. Some argue for its merits, while others think it's overrated. They argue that the benefits of shared liquidity are somewhat limited and that MEV across L2s is not as important as one might think since it can be broken down into MEVs between different L2s.

Expanding Ethereum’s ability to directly support more data is critical. While ideally everything should be Rollup, practical constraints require exploring optimistic data constructs for off-chain data, with high-security functionality retained on-chain via Rollup.

Account abstraction also brings another challenge. Determining where account status is stored and effectively managing updates across multiple locations requires innovative solutions. One approach is to adopt a minimal keystore rollup, where state is stored in a neutral rollup on top of Ethereum and is accessible to other L2s.

These ideas are still in their early stages and are under ongoing discussion within the Ethereum community. In practice, those critical functions that require L1 processing should remain there, while providing flexibility for different L2 processing of various functions is also very valuable.

Q: If you have a system that theoretically gives you some ZK level privacy, how do you, as a user, know that you're actually getting that level of privacy?

A: I think this is essentially a continuation of the problem Ethereum already faces: ensuring the security of assets in smart contracts. If you trust assets to smart contracts rather than individuals, how do you ensure there are no backdoors allowing unauthorized access?

Current solutions include reading the contract on Etherscan, where people can publish the source code. While this is useful for savvy users, it is unrealistic for average users who are unable to review complex code themselves. Wallets have begun to address this issue by providing more warnings, such as alerts when interacting with less familiar applications.

One improvement I envision is a versioned DApp user interface based on IPFS hosting, where each update requires a blockchain transaction for authorization. This eliminates the risk of unauthorized updates by compromising the server. The wallet can then display information about the website's recent updates and approval status.

We also need better mechanisms for aggregating the opinions of high-quality researchers and auditors. Wallets may play a key role in assisting users by aggregating this information. The same tools as for Ethereum should be applied to ZK technology, including releasing the source code and verifying its authenticity.

For example, tools like Etherscan can publish ZK source code and verify it on-chain. This approach ensures transparency and security for on-chain and off-chain ZK technologies such as Zoopass.

These efforts extend the same principles used by Ethereum contracts to the realm of ZK technology, ensuring user security and a transparent ecosystem.

Q: How do you think Ethereum solves the pressing problem of quantum threats, and what impact does this have on the broader cryptocurrency ecosystem?

A: The important point is that from a technical perspective, we have quantum-resistant algorithms for every vulnerability of quantum computers. Quantum computers break existing elliptic curve signatures, but we have various solutions based on hash functions, lattices, and homomorphisms. For example, lattice- and homomorphism-based solutions can address the impact of quantum attacks on elliptic curve cryptography and implicit addresses. Additionally, the latest technologies such as Starks have recently achieved breakthroughs in size reduction, providing quantum resistance due to their reliance on hash functions.

Fully Homomorphic Encryption Fortunately, it is inherently quantum resistant, because quantum computers do not affect lattice-based cryptography. While this problem is solved in theory, some logistical challenges remain between theory and practice. However, emergency recovery mechanisms can protect most funds, although efforts are underway to ensure full quantum resistance for both users and the protocol.

To achieve this goal, several key steps are necessary. First, implementing account abstraction will allow users to choose quantum-resistant signature algorithms. Additionally, the Ethereum consensus layer needs to be quantum resistant, despite engineering challenges arising from the high efficiency of current signature schemes such as BLS. This highlights the importance of exploring alternatives, such as 8192-bit signatures per slot, to accommodate less efficient quantum-resistant algorithms, while researchers work on optimizing and benchmarking post-quantum alternatives.

Q: In your opinion, what are the benefits of combining AI with cryptocurrency? How will this reshape the industry? You discussed the role of AI in debugging code in February, can you provide more thoughts on how AI can be used in crypto and Ethereum?

A: AI and cryptocurrency are two very important topics in today’s era. Important technology trends. There is a saying that AI tends to be centralized, while cryptocurrencies are striving to be decentralized. There is a certain complementary relationship between the two. But the question is, can we move from this concept to actual application examples, in a way that makes sense and is productive for both.

One is that AI participates in prediction markets and other types of markets on Ethereum, essentially making the market more micro-scale and creating APIs that can function within it. Another is using AI as part of the wallet to help users understand the crypto environment they are interacting with. The third is to use cryptography, including ZK, SNARK, MPC, etc., to embed AI to create a safe, powerful and privacy-protecting AI model, making it a central participant in on-chain applications, whether it is DApps or Oracles, etc. other forms. And then the fourth one is AI that if successful could be used in other areas.

Of these applications, I think the first two are the most obvious short-term applications, while the latter two are more speculative. I definitely don’t want to give people the impression that the application of artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency is going to be the next big narrative, driving the industry forward or anything like that. But I do think these intersections are worthy of further study.

In addition, another application is that AI can perform rolling debugging of code. One of the biggest challenges currently facing the encryption field is code errors and vulnerabilities. One promising possibility is that AI can greatly simplify the process of using formal verification tools to prove that a set of code satisfies specific properties.

Q: What do you think of the Ethereum re-staking wave?

A: Re-staking is indeed an interesting idea, but the possible risk is that demand will be taken over by centralized participants, as well as various systemic risks and the impact on the Ethereum validator set. Impact. I know there are some projects going on looking at some different approaches, so far I'm just observing the field and looking forward to seeing what the future holds.

Q: You seem to be more active on Farcaster than on Twitter. Can decentralized social applications like Farcaster really compete with Web2 social applications? Or can it subvert the social model?

A: Yes, I think one of the interesting things about social is that it has network effects, but it also has anti-network effects. Twitter is a platform for all kinds of people, but it’s also a place for the really annoying people. I find that Farcaster has also accumulated enough users and is interesting enough that I can get higher quality interactions on this platform, although it still needs to be perfected.

I think that Twitter may differentiate between high-quality content and people, low-quality content and people, and many people criticize these mechanisms, including management and Blue V certification, thinking that they may become a kind of centralization Tools or privileges that serve a particular perspective and a particular group. And the Crypto space, as well as many non-financial applications like Ethereum, fundamentally solve this problem and try to solve these types of trust issues. Decentralized social networking can really solve this problem.

Another important feature about Farcaster is that it is not a server, but a shared platform. So, in principle, you can use your own client, and your client can read or write the same content, and all users on the network can see it. I think this could definitely be a place for people to start experimenting with creating their own clients and adding interesting new features. For example, you could imagine people posting their own community notes on Farcaster, or posting various AI-based discussions or even predictions. On Farcaster, you could imagine people creating their own mechanisms to identify high-reputation actors and low-reputation actors, etc. Different groups may use different approaches. All these things can be done by different clients.

Another thing that excites me is that I think Farcaster is an app that is particularly practical, smooth, easy enough to use, and is being used by some non-crypto people. I think this is something that many apps don't do, and it sets a template for other similar apps.

Q: Do you have any specific suggestions for non-native English speakers to participate in the public goods ecosystem?

A: First of all, if you have a certain level of English skills, it is valuable to translate some content. You can also summarize some information, or actively participate in the co-construction of some protocols (communities), because many protocols are in Try to welcome more participants from around the world or become a voter or badge holder.

Q: Why are you so interested in longevity? If you were immortal, what would you do?

A: I just like life, and life is beautiful. What would I do if I were immortal? Probably the same thing I do now, just for longer.

Q: Looking at the development and evolution of cryptocurrency, what surprises you most? What do you think the cryptocurrency industry will look like in another 5 years?

A: NFTs really surprised me in 2020, along with the resurgence of meme coins. On the positive side, the rapid advancements in ZK technology are particularly surprising because such advancements are rare in software development. Additionally, the pace at which L1 protocols are changing, such as Merger and Cancun, is impressive.

Q: Can you give some advice to new blockchain developers?

A: I think the most important thing is to get yourself motivated to participate and stay involved, to actually start joining and becoming part of the community. It is much more important to find a clear direction and then make something that truly "works" than to just not make it. You can also try joining the field by writing, which is a way to push yourself.

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