Marty Cagan on Product Operating Models and the Future of Scrum

Product Operation Model: Marty Cagan Interview Summary The product operation model was proposed by Marty Cagan and aims to provide traditional enterprises with a path to product-centric transformation. This model emphasizes empowering product teams and delegating adjudication authority to experts responsible for solving critical problems. Cagan is critical of traditional Scrum setups, advocating for transparency and continuous delivery processes that focus on innovation rather than predictability. The product operating model emphasizes delegation, cross-functional teamwork, and ties together the roles of engineers, designers, and product managers. This approach differs from Scrum teams, which typically consist of developers only.

TL; DR: Product Operation Model: Marty Cagan Interview

Let’s discuss Marty Cagan’s view on product management revolution, embracing empowered teams and insights that drive innovation by adopting the product operating model described in his latest book, Transformation. We’ll reveal how to effectively navigate the transformation path to a product-centric approach, and how Marty sees Scrum in this context.

"Transformation" book cover

Product Operations Model Interview Question Set 1: General Model

Marty Kegan's "Transformation" Emphasis A critical but actionable shift to a product operating model, emphasizing the first steps of transformation, the critical role of trust, and a focus on results. He used industry examples to refute doubts and discussed the adaptability and scalability of product operating models. Marty Cagan also talks about the changing role of product managers, balancing speed with quality and ongoing customer engagement. The first set of questions involves the product operating model itself:

1. Understanding Transformation

Marty, in your book Transformation, what do you think is the key to transitioning to a product operating model? It is necessary and possible for traditional companies. Please detail the first steps your company should take to initiate this transformation.

Marty Cagan: We recommend starting with an organizational assessment. We provide the one used in Chapter 29.

2. Successful case studies

This book provides detailed case studies on successful transformation. Can you share an example not included in the book of a company that overcame a significant obstacle in its transformation journey?

Marty Kegan: That’s the purpose of writing this book. Each case represents an example of a company overcoming significant obstacles. Each case study represents an important piece of work.

3. Empower the product team

You emphasized the importance of empowering the product team. In your experience, what are the most common barriers to empowerment in organizations? How can these barriers be removed?

Marty Kegan: The biggest obstacle is trust. It requires genuine trust from executives and stakeholders to empower others to take responsibility for solving critical problems, which is why transformation is about earning that trust over time.

4. The role of leadership in transformation

How should CEOs and senior leaders change the way they think and operate to facilitate a successful transition to a product model?

Marty Cagan: Mainly, senior leaders need to understand the product model and what it means. Then, they need to be willing to provide product teams with opportunities to prove they can be trusted.

5. Innovation after transformation

Once a company successfully transforms, what practices can ensure that it continues to innovate and does not fall into the old model?

Marty Kegan: Once the conversation really turns to results, and once the team demonstrates that they know how to achieve results, it's very difficult for a company to revert to just output. Therefore, the key is to focus on consistent results.

6. Metrics for Transformation Success

What metrics or metrics do you recommend companies track to measure the effectiveness of their transformation to a product-led organization?

Marty Cagan: While there are many progress metrics, because the focus of transformation is on delivering results, other metrics are nothing more than activity measures (aka vanity metrics) unless the product team starts delivering results. Again, the key is to consistently deliver results. We recommend starting with a specific pilot team and then expanding from there.

7. Address Skepticism

How do you address skepticism within your company, especially those who believe that the product operating model is not suitable for their specific industry or market?

Marty Kegan: First, we should all acknowledge that skepticism is normal and reasonable, especially in organizations that make so many promises but fail to deliver on results. Secondly, this is why the examples in the book cover so many different industries and regions of the world, from regulated financial services to regulated healthcare to regulated rail travel. But it's important to point out that if someone wants to find a reason not to try to transition, it's not that hard to pick something and say "this is why we can't do it." But the book is filled with examples of companies ignoring these people.

8. Product strategy and vision

How do you recommend that companies develop a product strategy and vision that is consistent with the product operating model and adapts to market changes?

Marty Cagan: If they read the book EMPOWERED, they would understand how to create a strong product vision and product strategy, and they would see that while the product vision is designed to span several years, the product strategy is designed to span quarterly Update it once to adapt to market changes (and the product team’s ongoing learning).

9. Scaling Agile and Product Practices

What are the key factors to consider when scaling Agile and Product practices across multiple teams and regions in a large organization?

Marty Cagan: This product model is used by some of the largest technology-driven product organizations in the world, larger than most by several factors. Therefore, there should be no doubt whether the model is scalable. In fact, at the heart of the model is continuous innovation and results at scale.

10. The future of product management

With the rapid advancement of technology, how do you see the role of product managers evolving in the next ten years?

Marty Kegan: This is a huge topic. See "Preparing for the Future."

11. Balancing Speed ​​and Quality

How does a company balance the speed of product development with the need to maintain high quality standards?

Marty Cagan: The key is to realize that speed and quality are not mutually exclusive as long as the team uses the principles of the product model, especially small, frequent, uncoupled releases, that is, continuous delivery. Check out the book Accelerate to learn the rationale behind how the best organizations move faster and maintain higher product quality.

12. Customer-centricity during transformation

Can you discuss how the company remains customer-centric during and after transformation?

Marty Cagan: If companies follow the principles in the product model, it means they will have close and ongoing contact with their users and customers. In fact, this is one of the main reasons for transformation. Customer interaction is critical to the innovation process.

13. Learn from Failure

Can you share a personal or observed example of a failed transformation attempt and what lessons were learned from the experience? ?

Marty Kegan: See "Transition Failure."

14. Integrating New Technologies

How should companies integrate new technologies such as artificial intelligence and machine learning into product development processes as part of their transformation?

Marty Cagan: One of the defining characteristics of companies using product models is the level of involvement of engineers, particularly as a source of new enabling technology. Today, you can see product model companies that are leading the way in applying artificial intelligence and machine learning.

15. Maintaining agility in a changing market

How can companies ensure that their newly adopted product models remain nimble and able to respond to unforeseen challenges?

Marty Cagan: This is a key reason why a product model is a set of principles rather than a process, framework, or methodology.

Product Operating Model Interview Question Set 2: Model and Scrum

The second set of questions explores the nuances of the Product Operating Model and Scrum. We dive into issues surrounding empowered teams, role dynamics, and scaling in agile environments. Marty Cagan critiques traditional Scrum setups and highlights the differentiation and depth of roles in empowered product teams, challenging traditional Scrum practices and championing innovation over predictability:

16. Empower Product Teams vs. Scrum Teams

Marty, in your framework you argue for giving product teams autonomy to creatively solve problems. Could you elaborate on how this concept differs from or aligns with the Scrum framework's idea of ​​self-managing teams? What aspects of Scrum teams do you think are underutilized in promoting empowerment?

Marty Cagan: Most "scrum teams" are just a group of developers and a backlog manager product owner, also known as the "delivery team". An empowered product team is made up of fully cross-functional professionals—developers, designers, and product managers; see “Product vs. Feature Teams.” More generally, Scrum is a specific delivery process. Product teams are designed for discovery and delivery, and engineers can use whatever delivery process they feel is best for the delivery task at hand.

17. Role Comparison

In the Product Operations Model, how do you view the roles of Product Manager, Product Designer and Tech Lead compared to Product Owner, Scrum Master and Agreement or disagreement among Scrum roles such as Developer? Do you think Scrum roles adequately outline the responsibilities needed for a truly empowered product team, or are there gaps in your model?

Marty Cagan: A product owner is about 10% of what a true product manager is. Your “scrum team” completely lacks professional product designers. Scrum Master is typically a role played by a delivery manager, but regardless, in the product model, product leaders—managers of engineers, designers, and product managers—are tasked with coaching and developing strong product managers, strong product managers main responsibility. Designer and strong engineer. Technical leads are senior developers who play a central role in discovery and delivery. To be honest, Scrum teams are quite amateur compared to professional product teams. The world's top technology-driven product companies are built on product teams.

18. Scrum Events and Artifacts

Scrum specifies specific events and artifacts to guide the development process. How do these practices fit into the product operating model? Do these events and artifacts have a place in the product operating model, or are you advocating for a different approach that aligns with the principles of empowering product teams?

Marty Cagan: If engineers on a product team decide to use Scrum for delivery work, they can run sprints as formally or informally as they wish. But the reality is that most product teams moved beyond Scrum years ago to something that more naturally integrates with continuous deployment—usually Kanban boards or a simplified derivative.

19. Balancing Agility with Product Strategy

A popular criticism of Scrum is that it can focus too much on short-term delivery goals at the expense of long-term product strategy. How does your product operating model ensure that the team remains agile and responsive to change, while staying aligned with the product’s coherent strategic vision?

Marty Cagan: That’s what the strategic context is all about, and that’s about the critical role of the product leader. In product companies, Agile/Scrum coaches advise that each product team has its own product vision and product strategy, which is a very clear sign of never working in a product company. EMPOWERED describes the strategic context needed to empower product teams to make the right decisions.

20. Scaling Considerations

As organizations grow in size, they often turn to frameworks like SAFe or LeSS to manage multiple Scrum teams working on the same product. How does the concept of empowered product teams scale in large organizations? How does this compare to Scrum’s scaling approach? Are there valuable lessons learned from the extended Scrum framework or areas where you feel a different approach is needed?

Marty Cagan: See answer to question #9 above, but more generally, processes like SAFe are all about optimizing for predictability rather than innovation, and here’s my theory explaining why I There is not a single company in the world that uses SAFe or uses SAFe as a single product model. Furthermore, according to the principles behind Agile, SAFe is anything but Agile. Obviously this is waterfall, which certainly makes sense for a process designed for predictability. In contrast, one of the first principles of the product model is innovation over predictability, and another is principles over process. Therefore, it should be easy to understand why this product model is incompatible with waterfall delivery processes like SAFe. That said, I fully expect to see the term "product model" appear above the next iteration of SAFe, as this has been their marketing strategy for a long time and they're banking on people not understanding or caring about what they're doing.

Conclusion

In exploring the product operating model with Marty Cagan, we embarked on a transformational journey toward a product-centric approach and dissected Possible interactions between empowered product teams and Scrum dynamics. Cagan critiques the traditional Scrum framework, which favors nuanced roles within strong product teams, and highlights the need for an innovation-driven, adaptable product management strategy.

What model of product do you use? More interestingly, does Scrum still have a place? Please share what you learned with us in the comments.

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